13 Jan Leaders Must Live Strictly Principled Lives
INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS
Founder-Ācārya: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
The following lecture on the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2nd canto, 9th chapter, Text 40,
was given by His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami in Iskcon Ujjain, India on 13 January 2008
[His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami and devotees recite]
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
naraṁ caiva narottamam
devīṁ sarasvatīṁ vyāsaṁ
tato jayam udīrayet
bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2nd canto, 9th chapter, Text 40
ekadā niyamān yamān
bhadraṁ prajānām anvicchann
Word for word:
prajā-patiḥ — the forefather of all living entities; dharma-patiḥ — the father of religious life; ekadā — once upon a time; niyamān — rules and regulations; yamān — principles of control; bhadram — welfare; prajānām — of the living beings; anvicchan — desiring; ātiṣṭhat — situated; sva-artha — own interest; kāmyayā — so desiring.
Thus once upon a time the forefather of living entities and the father of religiousness, Lord Brahmā, situated himself in acts of regulative principles, desiring self-interest for the welfare of all living entities.
One cannot be situated in an exalted position without having undertaken a regulative life of rules and regulations. An unrestricted life of sense gratification is animal life, and Lord Brahmā, in order to teach all concerned within the jurisdiction of his generations, taught the same principles of sense control for executing higher duties. He desired the welfare of all as servants of God, and anyone desiring the welfare of the members of his family and generations must conduct a moral, religious life. The highest life of moral principles is to become a devotee of the Lord because a pure devotee of the Lord has all the good qualities of the Lord. On the other hand, one who is not a devotee of the Lord, however qualified he may be in the mundane sense of the term, cannot be qualified with any good quality worthy of the name. The pure devotees of the Lord, like Brahmā and persons in the chain of disciplic succession, do not do anything to instruct their subordinates without acting accordingly themselves.
Mahārāja starts speaking here. He recites the verse again.
ekadā niyamān yamān
bhadraṁ prajānām anvicchann
So also another verse which is quite easy to remember. How many of you have memorized it already? just three, four, five. Okay,Sādhana Siddhi raised last, raised his hand last. let’s see his faith. First line of the verse
Sādhana Siddhi: [Unclear]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: No, this verse.
Sādhana Siddhi: prajāpatir dharma-patir.
Sādhana Siddhi: [Unclear]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, what is the next verse.
Devotees recite from memory the complete verse.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Very good. So, follow the principle and it will happen. First word of first line. Once you got the first word prajāpatir, next prajāpatir dharma patir, ekadā niyamān yamān
Devotees: ekadā niyamān yamān
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: then bhadraṁ prajānām anvicchann
Devotees: bhadraṁ prajānām anvicchann ātiṣṭhat svārtha-kāmyayā
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, very good. So now everyone memorized it [Laughter]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: So, now this chapter is coming towards the end. This chapter has already described how Brhama asked the question to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and then the Supreme Personality of Godhead instructed him in the most wonderful way and those instructions were the root of Śrīmad Bhāgavatam; those instructions were the nucleus of Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, the four verses, Catuḥ sloka. What do the four verses generally describe? Okay, tum batao. Catuḥ sloki ke pehle verse me kya bataya hai.
Devotee: Recites the first verse of Catuḥ śloke Bhāgavatam. ahaṁ evāsam evāgre nānyad yat sad-asat param paścād ahaṁ yad tac ca yo ’ vaśiṣyeta so ’smy ahaṁ”
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: ācha, paścād ahaṁ ke baad kya hai.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: “ yad etac ca”
Devotee: yad etac ca
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: yad etac ca. sandhi ho Kar kya hotā hai, yad etac ca.
Devotee: yad etac ca
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: ācha matlab kya hai is slok ka aṇgrejī main.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: ācha, Okay, Who can tell? Śraddhā hai class main.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: ācha, to thik hai, to kaun bolega. Okay, carry on.
Devotee: Brahmā it is I who was there before the creation, it is I who is maintaining the creation and also it will be I after the creation.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Very good. And the second verse.
Devotee: “ṛte ’rthaṁ yat pratīyeta na pratīyeta cātmani tad vidyād ātmano māyāṁ yathābhāso yathā tamaḥ”
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, the Meaning
Devotee: Whatever is not in relation to the Supreme Lord it is unreal, it is illusory energy of the Lord just unreal.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, so, “ṛte ’rthaṁ yat pratīyeta na”, something that appears to be real but if it is not connected to Kṛṣṇa, then it is Māyā; Māyā means illusion. Illusion means it appears to be existing but it does not. It is not real. Like its that is there a tree in the reflection of the tree, although it appears in the reflection of the tree or in photograph of a tree, it looks like there in the photograph of a tree there are so many beautiful flowers and so many beautiful fruits, but can you eat those fruits? No, it is just a reflection and this is what kind of reflection? It’s a reflection in darkness that is causing, that is making it appear to be real and the third verse.
Devotee: “yathā mahānti bhūtāni bhūteṣūccāvaceṣv anu”
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, no, let us see Kartik has raised his hand. Kartik stand up, we can’t see you. Third verse
Kartik prabhu: “yathā mahānti bhūtāni bhūteṣūccāvaceṣv anu praviṣṭāny apraviṣṭāni tathā teṣu na teṣv ahaṁ”
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Very good. aur iska meaning? You know the meaning? Okay, sit down. “yathā mahānti bhūtāni bhūteṣūccāvaceṣv praviṣṭāny apraviṣṭāni tathā teṣu na teṣv ahaṁ that is, just as, ‘yathā mahānti bhūtāni’ the elements of universal creation enters into everything yet it is outside of everything. Similarly I, tathā teṣu tathā teṣu teṣu means in them, tathā teṣu but na teṣv ahaṁ not in them. I am in them and not in them. So,that is the inconceivable potency of the Lord. So He is in everything and yet He is not in everything. So, what is the fourth verse?
Devotees: “etāvad eva jijñāsyaṁ tattva-jijñāsunātmanaḥ anvaya-vyatirekābhyāṁ yat syāt sarvatra sarvadā”
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: You want to say the meaning. Tumi bolbe, mane.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: banglay, class ki banglay hochey.
Devotee: English e bolte parbo
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: bolte parbe, okay, say it.
Devotee: [speaks the meaning in Hindi]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: eta hindi class hoche ki [laughter]?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: etāvad eva jijñāsyaṁ etāvad means?
Devotees: upto this.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Whose jijñāsā? “tattva-jijñāsunātmanaḥ” Those who are inquiring about the Absolute Truth, their question can only go up to this one. That is, that is the limit and then what is the third line?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: And the questions are anvaya-vyatirekābhyāṁ, directly or indirectly and then?
Devotee: yat syāt sarvatra sarvadā
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: and that is sarvatra sarvadā, at all time and at every place. Sarvatra– everywhere and sarvada– all time, which means there is nothing beyond this. This is the ultimate point. This is the ultimate knowledge. This is the ultimate understanding. So what is the ultimate understanding? The ultimate understanding that is revealed about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In these first three verses that has been pointed out that is the ultimate. The Lord is the- although He is the creator of everything and He is the maintainer of everything and He existed before and He is going to exit after it. And if something is not related to the Lord, it’s useless; doesn’t have any existence Māyā and just as the creations of the material elements, just as the elements of material universe in spite of entering into everything they are outside of everything, similarly the Lord is inside of everything yet He is not inside of everything and if you understood these three things, that is etāvad eva jijñāsyaṁ. Is there any other question beyond this? The other questions are, like, how are you? I am fine, thank you [Laughter].
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: What did you eat today? Do you know there is a nice TV program? That is the other question. Okay, now, so, Brahmājī after receiving this knowledge, when the Lord disappeared, Brahmā got involved in creating this material universe and Brahmājī has been described here as the forefather of living entities: prajāpati. Prajapati– the Lord of everyone, why? Because Lord Brahmā created everybody. All the bodies have been created by Lord Brahmā and he is also Dharmapatih, he is the father of religiousness because dharma is coming from Brahmā. What is dharma? “dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītaṁ”- Dharma is the law given by the Lord, the spiritual understanding and the direction to remain on the spiritual path in order to get back, in order to go back to the Supreme Personality of Godhead has been given by the Lord and that is dharma. So, who received the codes of dharma? Lord Brahmā. So, Lord Brahmā gave it to human society. Therefore, he is also the Dharmapatih. And ekada– once upon a time, what did he do? Situated himself in acts of regulative principles- niayma nimayena niyamān yaman, niyamān yaman; niyama means rules and regulation and yama means, yama means self control. So, external practice is niyama and internal control is yama. Yama niyam and niyamān yaman- what did he do? bhadraṁ prajānām anvicchann desiring prajānām, prajā– what is the meaning of the word prajā? Prajā means living entities and bhadraṁ means welfare, anvicchann desiring, I am sorry, Kāmān is desiring, also anvicchann is also desiring. Desiring the welfare of all living entities, he controlled his senses and situated himself in the acts of regulative principles.
So Prabhupāda in the purport is pointing out that, one cannot be situated in an exalted position without having undertaken a regulative life of rules and regulations. If one does not lead a life or prepare himself through practicing of rules and regulations of the scriptural codes or even moral codes, one will not be able to properly execute his responsibility that comes along with an exalted position. So, just from this one particular sentence of Prabhupāda, we can see the sad state of affairs in the human society today.
The leaders of society are they learning the process of self control and because the leaders are not properly situated, the followers are also not properly situated. The leaders set an example. If the leaders are properly situated in the path of dharma and people will also follow them and execute that responsibility or follow and remain on the path of dharma. But when the leaders are not self controlled, when the leaders do not have proper training, when the leaders do not go through the austerities of preparing themselves to become qualified, then what will happen to the human society? We are seeing what is happening to the human society. When the leaders are not properly situated in religious and moral and ethical codes then what kind of leaders they are? What kind of people those who do not follow the proper codes of conduct that has been presented through the religious scriptures and moral codes and ethics, then what happens? They become like animals. People those who don’t- Prabhupāda is making the point that unrestricted life of sense gratification is animal life. Human beings are not animals. Human beings should not lead the life of an animal. An animal does anything that he wants. Animal doesn’t have any consideration for moral or religious codes. They don’t have any code of conduct but the human beings, they have. Therefore, it has been pointed out that, if the people- Prabhupāda was saying that unrestricted life of sense gratification is an animal life. Now should the human beings lead the life of an animal or should they become human beings? What makes a human a human? Just the body, the shape of the body? No, what makes the human a human? Is the sense of morality, sense of religiosity, sense of ethics. That is what makes a human being a human being. And unfortunately today’s human society is not a human society, it has become animalistic society although they apparently look like civilized but they are completely uncivilized because there is no consideration of sense control. Therefore, they do not have any aspiration of higher objective of life. They don’t aspire for something higher.
So, what is happening? Although apparently it is a very glamorous society, although they look very cultured from their dress and other things but what is happening, that inside their subtle body is becoming like that of an animal. And what will happen as a result of that? When they leave this body what will happen? Yes, for a time being they are in human body but after they die, after they have to leave, after they leave this body, what will happen? They will glide down to animal life. They are already animals; their subtle bodies have taken the shape of an animal. Now it’s only a matter of time they get an appropriate body. That appropriate body is waiting for them, next life, get an animal body and that is the law of nature. Whether it sounds pleasant or not but that’s the law of nature but we have to be prepared for that. Now the question is that are we going to allow ourselves slide down to that degraded state of existence? Are we? Are we going to take the risk now that we have got this human form of life? Should we allow ourselves to be degraded to the animal species getting an animal body? No, an intelligent person shouldn’t do that. So what should we do? What makes a human a human? The ultimate consideration of the human form of life is “athāto brahmā jijñāsā” now inquire about spiritual identity and elevate yourself to that. That is what the human life is meant for. Or, if the life is just centered “āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca sāmānyam etat pashubhih” āhāra means eating, nidrā sleeping, bhaya defending from fear, defending oneself from the fearful situation and maithuna– sex life, eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So, that is not human propensity that is animal propensity. They are there in the animals also. Animals also have these four propensities- eating, sleeping, mating and defending. But what makes a human being different from an animal? What makes a human being different from an animal? ‘Brahmā jijñāsā’ that’s the beginning, inquiry about the spiritual identity. Am I this body or am I something beyond this body? And when you make this inquiry then what happens? What is the answer? Am I this body? No, how do you know that you are not this body?
Devotee: Because when we will die this body will remain
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Very good.
Devotee: It can’ do any work where without soul it can’t do any work because the ultimate thing is we are soul.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Very good. So, you have accepted the soul, right? Right, Yes, at one point the body becomes dead? What causes the body to die and what cause the body to be alive? Yes, I am asking you. Will you answer? What causes the body to be alive?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Yes, Okay, you tell us.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: The presence of soul and what causes the body to die?
Devotee: Absence of the soul.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Absence of soul, right? So, who makes the body alive? The soul, right? Now, what is our real identity? The soul. It’s my body who is me who is I?
Devotee: The soul
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: The soul. Now, do we need to know the identity of ours, the spiritual identity, the soul. I am the soul but do I know that, do I know me? If we question then what will be the answer, do I know me? How many of you know yourself?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, Gaṅgā Nārāyana clarified by saying theoretically. Okay, another small hand went up at the back. Let me see. So, Kārtika, stand up. I am asking you to stand up because otherwise I can’t see you. I can see your hand but I can’t see your face. So, who are you?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: And what is the soul?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Soul is not paramātmā, soul is ātmā and where does ātmā come from?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Where does the soul come from, ātmā come from?
Devotee: Goloka Vṛndāvana.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, Have you seen Goloka Vṛndāvana? Okay, do you want to see Goloka Vṛndāvana? Do you want to see yourself? Do you want to know yourself? Then what you have to do? In order to know yourself what you have to do?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: In order to know who we are, what do we have to do? [Unclear]
Devotee: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, and why are you chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Why are you chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? To know yourself, to know Kṛṣṇa, right? If you know Kṛṣṇa, then you know yourself. Just as when the sun comes up, with the light of the sun you can see everybody. Do you see yourself when the sun comes up? When the sun is not there, can you see yourself? No, when the sun is not there, can you see the sun? No, but when the sun comes up, you see the sun, you see yourself and you see everybody else. So, similarly, when Kṛṣṇa -when you become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when you know Kṛṣṇa, in the light of Kṛṣṇa consciousness we know everything and everybody including ourselves, right? You think it’s a nice process to know yourself? What are you going to do now?
Devotee: Chant the Holy Name.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Okay, what is the Holy Name?
Devotee: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Very good. How many rounds do you chant every day?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Four, okay, very good. Thank You. Sit down. Good. So this is the process. This is the process but in order to do that what we have to do? We have to follow the regulative principles, dharma, the codes of dharma and the codes of dharma already includes the codes of morality. Religious codes already include the moral codes. If somebody is pursuing the path of dharma, can he be immoral? So that’s why we see the code of morality is already included in the codes of dharma. If you want to be spiritually situated what you have to do? You have to follow the four regulative principles. If you are joining Iskcon, then what you have to do? You have to follow the four regulative principles. Four regulative principles are no meat eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex and no gambling. So, when one who does not do these things, is he situated on the path of morality or on the platform of morality. So, when somebody follows the path of dharma, he is automatically situated on the path of morality, so, that is what makes a human being a human being. Otherwise no matter how qualified, how exalted he may appear to be, if a person is the leader of the society but if he is a meat eater, he is a drunkard, if he is a womanizer and if he is gambler. Do people respect these kinds of people? Normally the human society, meat eating is not so bad but a drunkard, a debauchee and a gambler, are they respected in the human society? Should they be respected? Generally people- of course society is becoming very degraded now.
Now these people are becoming heroes, big gambler. I remember long time back, there was a Hindi movie called Gambler. So, now they are promoting these kind of things and most of the time we see, people are glorifying people those who are not at all exalted, not at all properly situated in their lives, those who are leading immoral lives. But the real human society, in the real human society, this kind of people are not at all respected. Who are respected? Those who are sense controlled. In the society, the devotees of the Lord are respected, why? Because first of all, they are leading a very high standard of life and then they give the right guidance and right direction, that’s why people worship the religious leaders. But also we get to know nowadays that some people are dressed like a devotee but act like an animal. It’s happening. Should they be respected? No. So that is the qualification of a leader. Prabhupāda is pointing out that a person cannot be situated in an exalted position unless he has undertaken a regulative life of rules and regulations.
And then such a person what does he do? He guides the human society for the benefit of everybody he gives them the proper spiritual understanding. Do this, do that. A teacher must command the confidence of his student. If the students don’t have confidence in their teacher, then they will not take his teachings seriously, especially, religious teachings. So, the religious leaders have to be exemplary in their activities and behavior and that is why this consideration of following the four regulative principles. So, now this are not only just the apparent requirement. These are inherent requirements. They are necessary. Why a spiritual person should not eat meat? A person who wants to make spiritual progress why shouldn’t he eat meat? Because meat eating will degrade his consciousness. Why is a spiritual personality or aspirant for spiritual life should not take intoxication? Again intoxication degrades the consciousness, he loses his consciousness. His consciousness becomes completely scattered and degraded. Why should not a spiritual aspirant or a spiritual personality not indulge in illicit sex? Because that degrades his character, that degrades him and same with gambling. So these acts will degrade one.
Now in order to become exalted, can we afford to take the path of degradation? If we want to go up, can we afford to fall down, simple consideration? If we want to go up, can we afford to fall down? In order to go up we cannot afford to fall down, we cannot afford to glide down, we have to go up and what makes one to go up? What makes the soul to and consciousness to go up? Spiritual activities. So, in order to go up by following the spiritual activities, spiritual process we have to take care that we do not go down. And then only one can create the proper welfare activity for the society, human society in general. “Prajānām svārtha kāmāya sārdha kāmāya” for their benefit “bhadram prajānām” for the benefit of their welfare, for their welfare. A spiritual leader must be situated in a proper situation by following the rules and regulations given by the scriptures. Scriptures are giving us the right direction but we have to follow those directions, practice that process and thus we must become exalted in order to benefit others. That’s why those who are taking the responsibility to guide the people in general must be very, very conscious about this need. They cannot act whimsically; they cannot act in an unrestricted way. They must be very, very strict with themselves. They must be exemplary in their behavior and how does one become exemplary in their behavior? By following the four regulative principles and remaining fixed up in their spiritual principles. Thank you very much.
All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Does anybody have any question?
Devotee: Guru Mahārāja these people are so degraded they are not inspired about spiritual life. So how we can [Unclear].
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: At least we may not be able to change others but we can change ourselves. That’s the first thing. Before we try to rectify them, correct them, we should correct ourselves. And that’s how we become exemplary and then we may not be able to influence the leaders, but we can influence the people around us. We can inspire them to follow this life of exalted spiritual practice.
So, charity begins at home. Healer heal thyself first. So we have to strictly follow ourselves, practice ourselves. We have to become exemplary then others will follow our examples. And then ultimately Kṛṣṇa will make the arrangements. If we become sincerely…, if we become sincerely adherent, if we become sincerely committed in serving Kṛṣṇa, by following His instructions, then Kṛṣṇa will take care. Kṛṣṇa wants Kṛṣṇa consciousness to spread all over the world but Kṛṣṇa will do it through His devotees. Therefore, first of all the devotees have to become exemplary, then it’s up to Kṛṣṇa if we become fixed up then Kṛṣṇa engages more and more in His service and the most important service is, most important business that Kṛṣṇa has is to ‘dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya’’ to establish the religious principles in this world. Mahāprabhu also predicted every town and village. Has Kṛṣṇa consciousness spread in every town and village? No, but that’s has to happen. Now who will do that? Mahāprabhu will do that through His devotees. So if we become His devotee, then He will engage us, He will use us. Therefore, what we need to do on our part? We have to become qualified ourselves and then Kṛṣṇa will engage us. Any other question? Yes Shyāmal.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: you have to live like what?
Devotee: We have to live life like devotee then only we can go to Kṛṣṇa ?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Who told you?
Devotee: Indradyumna Mahārāja.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Indradyumna Mahārāja?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Check it out. I don’t think that he said that. There is no guarantee that five lives or five million lives or you can make it this life, you can make it right now. Prabhupāda said that you can go to Kṛṣṇa right now. Kṛṣṇa is with you so why it will be difficult to go to Kṛṣṇa. Is it difficult for a, is it difficult for you to go to your mother?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: No. will it be difficult for you to go to your father? Is it difficult for you to go to your father?
Devotee: Now, yes.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Now yes, because he is but will it be difficult? Did he ever say that don’t come to me? Did he ever say that?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: So, similarly will it be difficult for you to go back to your supreme Father? What does your common sense say? No, why should it be five lives? Prabhupāda said finish off your business in this life; don’t come back again unless you have to come to preach. Okay, so, I think I should check that, right. Or, he may have said it as a joke. Koi praśna hai tumko, batao.
Devotee: Out of the four that you mentioned in this class, illicit sex and other three, I think is sex or sex with the life partner is also forbidden?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: You see, our scripture says that, you see, this act is only for procreation, right? It’s for procreation. So that is the main purpose. Isn’t it?
Devotee: What is now the society is?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Yes, that how the society has become so degraded and it shouldn’t be, like you can consider even the animals it’s only procreation, why should human beings be even worse than animals? And controlling sex life is the goal of life, ‘tapasya brahmacaryeṇa’
Devotee: But in the reputed papers and articles they have written that it is a necessity for..?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: it is a necessity..?
Devotee: inside the..
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: They don’t know anything.
Devotee: But most of the reputed
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: reputed. Their reputation comes from where [laughter]?
Devotee: Like India Today and other, regularly they are [unclear]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Yes India Today you can see India’s condition today [laughter]. You can make out what India today is. These people you know they don’t know anything. They are victims of you know, this animal culture, animalistic culture. I mean in India at least they are saying it’s a need for, you know, but in even in the west what is happening? Now these newspapers are promoting homosexualism. Now will anybody consider, anybody in right sense will sanction that homosexual? But, you know, today’s society is accepting it. In the west it has become a big thing. Even political parties are promoting that. So, that shows how the society is becoming degraded. It is not a human society anymore; it has become a society of animals and even worse than animals. Even the animals don’t act, don’t indulge in homosexual activities, right? So that shows what is happening to the human society. That reminds me, you know, like, couple of years back I was in Spain, in a religious conference and we were sitting together. there were Christian, Jew, Muslim. No, Muslim was not there. He didn’t join with us in the table. We were having just a friendly discussion and you see these people are religious leaders. They are religious, representing different religions, you know, Christianity, Judaism, four five of them were from these two groups and I was there. So, at one point they asked me, like, what is our views on homosexuality and my immediate response was, it spontaneously came, its demoniac and they were shocked, when I said it is demoniac [Laughter] and because, you know, I mean, I didn’t realize. After I started to discuss, I realized that although they were not verbally saying it but they were endorsing it, that’s okay to be homosexual and then I just made one point because both are actually from Christain and Jewish background. I asked them what was wrong with Sodom and Gomorrah? You know, in Bible there is this incidence of these two places Sodom and Gomorrah, why God want, that’s what I asked why God wanted to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Because they were indulging in homosexual activities and [unclear] and he destroyed them. He took out the pious people, the family of Lot and then he destroyed them and they were quiet, they didn’t say anything after that. It’s from their scriptures, it’s not from my scriptures it is pointed out, why God wanted to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, because of homosexual activities. So that is how sinful that act is.
Devotee: [Unclear] in the Brahmā’s creation [Unclear]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Who is born from…?
Devotee: Who is born from homosexual propensity?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: The demons are born from homosexual activity..
Devotee: Demons Yeah, demons are born from towards Brahman
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: No no that is different. That he became attracted, Dusk is a different incident altogether. The Dusk is not that. Brahmā became attracted to his own daughter and that’s why he gave up his body and that body became mist.
Devotee: Brahmā’s progeny male progeny became attracted to him so he ran towards the Lord and the Lord changed his features. Homosexuals are like [Unclear]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Now that is looking for the 24 hours [Laughter].
Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is [unclear] because they are always attracted to human so they have [Unclear]
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: But who are they?
Devotee: they are homo sexual.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: But who are they?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Demons, so that’s what I said, but I mean, should we allow this society to become demoniac?
Devotee: no actually we have differences of understanding of this verse their appearance and their proclivity and how they become like that but they do not harm us…
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: but the thing is, yeah, that it may appear. The reason is there, that doesn’t mean that it is being endorsed. It is not endorsed [Unclear]. So that is actually, you know, showing what these people are becoming.
Devotee: so this is do we know whether people are born with homo sexual propensity. It is a big question for them.
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: This is how they are justifying their degraded mentality. Born with this proclivity so what? I mean, is human being supposed to unrestricted sense enjoyment, right? Born with this proclivity what does it mean? Change your thing, change your degraded attitude, right? There is no, if you cannot justify a wrong act, I mean, if somebody comes and says I am born murder, right? I am born with the proclivity to murder whoever I see, I want to kill, now will the court of law justify that? You may have but you know there is a consideration sense of morality and ethics. Whatever is wrong should be punished and not endorsed. I mean, to begin with, you know, let’s consider what’s the purpose of sex life?
His Holiness Bhakti Charu Swami: Procreation. Now, I mean, if you look in this light, you can see immediately, this is an abnormal act.. And as I pointed out even animals don’t indulge in this kind of activity. Have you seen any animal born with this proclivity [Laughter].
Okay, thank you very much. All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. Gaur Premānande Hari Hari bol.
End of lecture.
Lecture duration 59:52
Transcription : Anonymous helper / Editing : Rāmānanda Rāya Dāsa
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